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[cypressgirl]

Why is it so unpopular to be a Christian? Pete, there is nothing in the Bible that says a homosexual should die. I know you know that. I love homosexuals. My daughter is a homosexual. I can't imagine loving anyone more. Do I believe in gay marriage. No......not in a million years. I am not a "holy" person. I am the biggest sinner I know. When I accidentally found out my daughter is gay, it has been the worst and best year of my life. The worst because I have moral beliefs and a gay daughter does not fit into those beliefs. To me, part of my daughter died that day. The best.........my faith has been tested to the max, and God has streched me in such a way that I didn't know possible. But I also see what being put to the test really means. I will never stop praying for my daughter, believeing God for the best for her life, and knowing that as long as I trust in Him, we will all be in good hands. I always knew that, but never where the rubber meets the road. I know that now. I don't pray for what I hope God will do for her, I thank him for what he's already done.

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[soxfan22]

SJ--

Hmmmm... sorry to bore you. Seems like I hit a little close to home... ouch. Did she leave you for another woman?

Thought I would stay out of this one...But really, Gromit, does this add to the discussion? You libs are such kind people.

And I bet you would be surprised to hear my thoughts on homosexuality.

I differ from SJ on this issue...While I do not support gay marriage, I do happen to think that in most cases, homosexuality is NOT a choice.

My FIL is very religious...Born-again. He and I go back and forth about homosexuality as it relates to being a "sin" etc etc. He believes it is a choice to engage in homosexual behaviour. One day I asked him, "why is it that I am aroused by women...have been my entire life...Yet if i were to stare at a naked man for hours on end, I would be repulsed, not aroused?". He never has an answer for that.

But Gromit, you should really clean it up.

[Pete (Mr. Marcia)]

Pete - you don’t sound like a heathen, you sound like me before I started seeking the truth. I tried to find any and every reason to not believe. I looked at every possibility. I could find none.

But, you see...that's a huge difference. You found a need to start looking for the truth, or at least a way of making sense of it all that also made sense to you.

I am at peace. I am not searching.

At the risk of being ridiculed, I will tell you what I believe in...Love. Loving your fellow person, loving your children, loving your wife, loving the world around you and being happy with what you have. If god is love, then we may have something in common after all.

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[toes in the sand]

I don't know why we are concerning ourselves with what the Bible says about homosexuality. Let's just assume that it clearly says that homosexuals are sinners and should die...let's just assume.

It has no bearing on the legal issue at hand. Separation of church and state.

When it comes to the issue in California, the only thing that matters is what the law says. I feel strongly that Prop 8 violates the Equal Protection Clause. Other legal theorists may disagree.

But, what the Bible has to say on the subject is, well, irrelevant.[/quote

And since none of us (I am assumning) sit on the Supreme Court of any state including California, what any of us has to say on the matter is, well, irrelevant. Except for the fact that Prop 8 still stands.

And, given that none of us are god, what we have to say about that also doesn't matter, right?

So, let's do this...I'll stop giving my legal opinions if you stop giving your religious opinions. Shake on it?

Sounds great to me. It's a deal. If you were to actually read my posts you will find my disagreement is not on religious grounds but on culture. I will refrain from bringing my religion into this discussion. I look forward to seeing you refrain from your legal opinion.

((SHAKE))

[flip-flop]

I am still trying to get clarity around how we know that God is anti-gay. What is the foundation of this argument if we aren't looking at Leviticus?

I am not a biblical scholar but I would like to know the foundation of the anti-gay marriage stance as it is so fervent.

[toes in the sand]

I am still trying to get clarity around how we know that God is anti-gay. What is the foundation of this argument if we aren't looking at Leviticus?

I am not a biblical scholar but I would like to know the foundation of the anti-gay marriage stance as it is so fervent.

I think I have made my reasons clear. You need only read.

[flip-flop]

I am still trying to get clarity around how we know that God is anti-gay. What is the foundation of this argument if we aren't looking at Leviticus?

I am not a biblical scholar but I would like to know the foundation of the anti-gay marriage stance as it is so fervent.

I think I have made my reasons clear. You need only read.

You said your reasons were cultural, not religious, so I am not asking you. I am referring to the biblical basis/religious basis for discrimination against same sex couples, since it is the most vocal of the opposition to marriage equality.

[cypressgirl]

I am still trying to get clarity around how we know that God is anti-gay. What is the foundation of this argument if we aren't looking at Leviticus?

I am not a biblical scholar but I would like to know the foundation of the anti-gay marriage stance as it is so fervent.

Roman 1:26-27

1 Timothy 1:10

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[flip-flop]

I am still trying to get clarity around how we know that God is anti-gay. What is the foundation of this argument if we aren't looking at Leviticus?

I am not a biblical scholar but I would like to know the foundation of the anti-gay marriage stance as it is so fervent.

Roman 1:26-27

1 Timothy 1:10

With all respect, both verses could, given the times and culture, have various meanings. A quick google search gives at least 3-4 possible meanings for each when put in the context of the time.

Add to this that it is a translation from Greek to English. How do we know that the meaning is consistent? We don't. Have you ever played that game where you whisper into the ear of the person next to you and then they whisper into the ear or the person next to them all the way around a room. Add to that human nature and the conscious or unconscious desire to serve ones own purpose. I am still unconvinced. Perhaps, this is why I don't get organized religion.

I believe that you don't have to attend church or take the bible literally to be spiritual or seeking God. Do onto others. Love one another. Do right because it is right not for fear of retribution. It is sad to me that so many are alienated from the Church and organized religion because of such minor narrow issues. Love and inclusion seems like such a better approach. I know you say you hate the sin not the sinner but when someone views your very essence as "sin" it is a difficult distinction for those being judged.

The concept of homosexual sexual orientation didn't even occur until the 19th c. when scholars began organized study of human sexuality. It is confounding to me that biblical teachings could be so unequivocal on the topic. I am unconvinced what is interpreted as "homosexual" had the same connotation in its original form.

I will concede that I am suspicious by nature of the possibility to know anything 100%. We are human, humans wrote the bible down, it is all subject to interpretation. I don't begrudge people who believe, surely there are many who truly are at peace and find great happiness and joy in their belief. I am just not that girl. Not because I am fighting it or haven't found my peace, but because I am by nature curious and information seeking. I like to believe if there is a God, he or she made me this way for a reason. I do, however, vehemently disagree with those who think they know the way and don't allow for any possibility that they could be wrong and believe they should be able to force their will on others in a detrimental way.

[flip-flop]

And one more thing...and then I'll leave you guys alone.

RE: Sotomayor. Say what you want about Obama but his choice while hopefully not purely political, was from a political standpoint, genius. He continues to back the haters (if you guys are still claiming Rush, Hannity, Newt and Coulter) into a corner where they seem to be frothing at the mouth. Confirmed or not, Obama is in a win-win situation.

At best the virtiolic opponents sound crazy. At worst, racist and/or mysognistic. She won't be able to see past her female-ness or her hispanic-ness to rule properly? Really, all the white men on the bench have no problem ruling in spite of their white maleness. What an asinine argument. Oh the other one I liked was that she was an intellectual lightweight. A woman who went to Yale and Princeton, and wasn't a legacy. Mmmmmmkay.

Go ahead ... bring the fight on that one. Alienate women and hispanics. Shhhhhh, don't tell them these are HUGE swing voting blocks they need. Further marginalize the republican party. It will save us a lot of campaign money in the future.

I did think Rove had a very funny (perhaps unintentionally, perhaps not) quote on the matter:

Rove said despite her stellar academic credentials, Sotomayor was “not necessarily” smart. “I know lots of stupid people who went to Ivy League schools,” said Rove.

Amen to that Karl. AMEN.

[cypressgirl]

I am still trying to get clarity around how we know that God is anti-gay. What is the foundation of this argument if we aren't looking at Leviticus?

I am not a biblical scholar but I would like to know the foundation of the anti-gay marriage stance as it is so fervent.

Roman 1:26-27

1 Timothy 1:10

With all respect, both verses could, given the times and culture, have various meanings. A quick google search gives at least 3-4 possible meanings for each when put in the context of the time.

Add to this that it is a translation from Greek to English. How do we know that the meaning is consistent? We don't. Have you ever played that game where you whisper into the ear of the person next to you and then they whisper into the ear or the person next to them all the way around a room. Add to that human nature and the conscious or unconscious desire to serve ones own purpose. I am still unconvinced. Perhaps, this is why I don't get organized religion.

I believe that you don't have to attend church or take the bible literally to be spiritual or seeking God. Do onto others. Love one another. Do right because it is right not for fear of retribution. It is sad to me that so many are alienated from the Church and organized religion because of such minor narrow issues. Love and inclusion seems like such a better approach. I know you say you hate the sin not the sinner but when someone views your very essence as "sin" it is a difficult distinction for those being judged.

The concept of homosexual sexual orientation didn't even occur until the 19th c. when scholars began organized study of human sexuality. It is confounding to me that biblical teachings could be so unequivocal on the topic. I am unconvinced what is interpreted as "homosexual" had the same connotation in its original form.

I will concede that I am suspicious by nature of the possibility to know anything 100%. We are human, humans wrote the bible down, it is all subject to interpretation. I don't begrudge people who believe, surely there are many who truly are at peace and find great happiness and joy in their belief. I am just not that girl. Not because I am fighting it or haven't found my peace, but because I am by nature curious and information seeking. I like to believe if there is a God, he or she made me this way for a reason. I do, however, vehemently disagree with those who think they know the way and don't allow for any possibility that they could be wrong and believe they should be able to force their will on others in a detrimental way.

You asked for more scriptures and I gave you a couple. You didn't want more biblical proof, because you wouldn't believe it anyway. I am not a religious person, I am a spiritual person. I don't love my God because I'm afraid of Him. He loves me more than anyone else I know. He created me. I can turn to Him when no one else is there for me. I don't love Him because I'm afraid I won't go to heaven. I love Him because he died so I can have an eternal life in heaven. It took me decades to get that, but now that I do, it's the best feeling in the world.

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