The College Thing

[KatieH]

[quote="sailorgirlThe odds of Ivy admissions are just geting so long. Something like less than 10% admission rate. Its insane.[/quote]

There's a sports piece for us, too. (I am quite sure he will not ace his SATs ) A few of his former team mates are fencing at Harvard and Yale, and his coach is also coaching at Harvard. They think that if he continues on his current path (grades and fencing) and wants to fence in college, that he'll have a good chance of getting into any school he wants.

He recently asked me why I was willing to spend money on clarinet lessons but not an ipod (or something like that). I told him that my job as a parent is to offer him opprotunities, not buy him stuff. His job is to take advantage of those opportunities.

Now I'll work on the "letting him figure it out for himself" piece, which means letting him fall and pick himself back up again. I may need Gorilla glue to keep my mouth shut

[jmq]

Its notable that some of the smaller liberal arts schools have really upped their games in science in the past 10 yrs. in order to compete with the big research universities.

Yes it is. The university I attended (small, private, liberal arts) just built a huge, expensive science center. It is amazing. The dean said interest from prospective students interested in the sciences is up over 125% since completion.

Its interesting that fair amount of the pre-med wannabes don’t even look at the smaller liberal arts schools. There were several in my daughters school who put all their chips on the Ivys and other big name schools with little to fall back on but State U.

Sure, there are more of the traditional warm and fuzzies in a liberal arts school, but plenty have also invested more in the sciences (facility and faculty), are more engaged with research opportunities and fellowships etc. and as a result are generating a higher percentage of the PhDs in the sciences, so the grad schools seem to recognize this.

A good example in PA is Juniata College. Plenty of other small gems like that around if you take the time to look.

[jmq]

jmq, (sorry missed the q)
In my job I employ hundreds of sub teachers. (over 1,000) Nation wide most districts have more sub teachers than they ever needed. Budgets are being cut State wide. I have more math and science subs than I've ever had. I can throw a rock and hit an Elem Ed. teacher. But that will change and science is a great major. Any college bound student thinking about majoring in education needs to go into their districts HR dept and talk to them about what hiring will be taking place in the next 5 years.

I've heard that about the current education market, but I thought the demographics were in favor, with the projections of teacher retirements over the next 5 yrs? Do you think the current glut of subs combined with budget cuts really flatten (or crush) that demand?

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[jmq]

There's a sports piece for us, too. (I am quite sure he will not ace his SATs ) A few of his former team mates are fencing at Harvard and Yale, and his coach is also coaching at Harvard. They think that if he continues on his current path (grades and fencing) and wants to fence in college, that he'll have a good chance of getting into any school he wants.

Katie - thats more true than many realize. If you have a kid with good grades and a special talent, continue to nurture both so you can play both cards.

There is novel written by a former Princeton admissions officer called aptly enough “Admissions”. It gives you fascinating glimpse into how the process works. This was reinforced by the most frank discussion of the admissions process I heard by an admit officer at Williams College. It’s the concept of buckets. They have lots of very specific buckets to fill, and if THEY really need YOU to fill one of the buckets, then you’ll be offered admission, and if they REALLY want or NEED you, you’ll get scholarship money.

For example, the Ivies and D3 schools don’t give athletic scholarships, but the baseball coach lets the admit office know that they need a shortstop. Also, the orchestra conductor lets them know they need a bassoon player, and the philosophy dept had a lot of kids graduate, so they tell them to flag any applicants that write passionate essays about the meaning of life. It also follows that athletes (or other specialists) that can make a difference in the areas of need can also get more generous merit consideration.

In sports, you don’t have to be an all state performer to have it help you, and maybe the more specialized your sport (like fencing), the more that can work to your advantage, especially if the school is competitive at their level or in their conference in that sport.

We made sure we met with the coaches at all of the D3 schools my daughter applied to, and they kept up email correspondence throughout the process. It did not hurt my daughter to have the 20 yr coach of a very good D3 cross country program walk her “pre-app” information over to the admissions office.

[jmq]

Just my opinion as a chemist. A BS from a more science oriented school such as Stevens IT, NJIT, possibly Seton Hall or yes, even Cook would trump a BS degree from any liberal arts school. Unless she wants to go into education, maybe.

Good point SJ. No doubt thats still true for the BS going into a job, but the tide is turning for liberal arts science student going onto grad and med school and the stats I've seen back that up. And indeed, the difference in that "practicality" vibe does come through when you do a dept level tour through a school like RU vs a liberal arts school.

And, "yes, even Cook". Hey now! You'd be surprised at the level of cut throat academics that went on there in the science programs by all the pre-vets that couldnt afford to get a B if they wanted to get into vet school.

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[sailorgirl]

Now I'll work on the "letting him figure it out for himself" piece, which means letting him fall and pick himself back up again. I may need Gorilla glue to keep my mouth shut

I grabbed for the Gorilla Glue just the other night. Our soon to be grad was home for a few days on break. We went to dinner and she spent the better part of the meal telling us how stressed she was, how she has sooomuch to do and does not know how she's going to get it all done,that she needs to get through with the meal ASAP so she can start to do some work. Cue the cell phone and she's making plans to meet a friend "for a minute." I clamped my lips shut and did not say a word. In the past I would have offered advice on time management and prioritization, but Ive learned my lesson. You see it turns out that despite the fact that I managed to find myself at the ripe old age of 50, stable, well established in my carrer and in a happy marriage I have nothing to offer her which could be of any use. So I smile, give her a hug, tell her I love her and send her off.

[jmq]

Certainly an advanced degree from a more technical University coupled with a BS from a liberal arts school would be a well rounded education.

Some liberal arts schools now also do “3/2 programs” where you do your core/prerequisite science at the liberal arts school for the first 3 yrs, then finish off at next level for stuff like engineering, getting a BA from the liberal arts school and a BS from the engineering school. Examples include Haverford partnering with Caltech and Wesleyan with the Columbia engineering school.

[Terry]

jmq:
Education is not the best option. PERA in several states are discouraging folks from retirement because they are losing money. I just attended a Colorado PERA retirement meeting and it's not good news. They invest in the market and the market is still not good. The tables for retirement are changing and putting retirement off to an older age. We won't see the influx of retirees that we once thought. Folks are working longer. The state retirement plans are retrofiting it so that they do work longer.

It breaks my heart at every sub orientation that I have weekly for the kids that are banking on getting a contracted job in education. And now that the funds in each state for education are being cut...the situation is worse. We are fortunate in our district that we passed a mill levy overide and a bond last November. We only have to cut 12 million next year. Compared to our largest state district that has to cut 56 million next year...it's going to be tough for any district to come back from this hit.

My advise is to not let your kids go into education for 5 more years. Sorry

[jmq]

So my best advice is that you need to know what you are able to do financially and be clear about it with your child. This is the first real world adult type decision that she will make and she needs to be clear about the potential consequences.
My other advice is this too shall pass, just keep the knees bent and go with the flow. They are teens and they change their minds like the breeze.

SG - thats good advice and more in the spirit of the original post. Thanks.
Like the price of real estate, the price of college got insane. The real world can no longer sustain those 5-10% increases per year that became routine. And with state budgets in the toilet, now state school tuition increases might outpace the private schools.
Here in NJ, the new Governor's budget just out is cutting $173M to colleges and universities and $15.2M in student financial assistance. The same budget proposal gives a $1 billion tax CUT to those who earn more than $400,000, so, those are the new priorities here.

Terry - thanks for the practical insight on opportunites in education.

Marcia - thanks for the how to deal with it advice here and in your PMs. What a stressful process.

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[jmq]

SJ – please, trying not to politicize. He won the election, so it is what it is. Nobody should be surprised or outraged. I’m actually glad he is standing up to the public employee unions. Its astonishing that there were over 11,000 public hires in NJ last year when the rest of the world was getting sliced to smithereens.

I’m in the middle of this college thing, so those figures naturally caught my eye, and used them to support the notion that an affordable college education even at a state school may become quaint notion.
And call me crazy, but that kind of cut tax at the same time seemed a bit incongruous.

On the numbers, I didn’t make any of that stuff up. Had the hard copy of the 3/17 Star Ledger in hand when I cited the numbers. I was able to find the electronic versions.

Fourth bullet point down shows the cut of $15.2M in student financial assistance
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/0 ... risti.html

This one details the $1B tax cut
http://blog.nj.com/njv_tom_moran/2010/0 ... ocrat.html

On the $173M cut in state aid to colleges and universities, that was highlighted on pg.18 of the 3/17 paper and can be found at the top of page 50 here:
http://media.nj.com/politics_impact/oth ... -brief.pdf
I just noticed further down on that page that going forward, the popular STARS program is toast. Thats regrettable.

So, do I win the hand?
JMQ

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